Wednesday 29 April 2015

Things to consider when choosing a Classic Hymer - how big? Which layout?

Things to consider when choosing a Hymer layout.

There is much discussion and passion expressed in Classic Hymers about layout. If you get it wrong, as I did in 1999, you are faced with changing your van, because once you realise it, if you are honest with yourself, you will never fully realise the enjoyment you originally envisioned.

So here I will attempt to guide you through the process of choosing the right Hymer layout - the questions you should be asking and the compromises you have to make.

It is based on 16 years of meeting other owners and hundreds of forum discussions. Where opinions are my own, I will say so, everything else you can take to be the average of what I have seen heard and read. Some of it is stating the obvious - but it has all has to be said for balance.

The first thing you have to do is to take a long hard look at who you are and what do you want from your motorhome? The most obvious thing is are you a family or a couple? 

The next thing to do is to think hard about your lifestyle - and here you have to be really honest - for example if you like a drink and a smoke and spend a lot of time lazing around late at night watching TV - then be honest! If your van doesn't allow this, even if you are a bit shy about it, nobody but you will ever know your frustration at midnight on a Saturday night, arguing with your partner about who is hogging the only available settee when the other has backache from 4 hours sitting in the dinette! This is particularly true for couples - so think long and hard about how the two of you will use the space - not just for the basic functions, but for true relaxation.

For families of course compromise is the name of the game, and in particular the ages of your tribe. Babies and toddlers are actually less of a problem than the 4 to 10's - once they go down you have that lovely couple of hours of tranquility at the end of the day - so do make sure mum and dad can relax in the layout you choose.

Families should never underestimate the stress involved in converting a motorhome (or indeed a caravan) from day use to night use. This is probably the number one reason for eventual disillusionment , and the commonest refrain I have heard everywhere - "We wish we had bought a bigger van". 

So lets tackle this issue right now - because it's actually more complex that it first appears. 

Unfortunately for younger owners, the law changed in 1997 - anybody that passed their test after then can only drive a vehicle up to 3.5t. Before that, and you can drive 7.5t. So it is not just about choosing the right layout - it also depends on your age.

So unless you are doing Gradnma and Grandad duty, I suspect that anybody today with children under 10 is unlikely to be able to drive, and therefore choose, anything over 3.5t. 

Now we are talking Classic Hymers here, not motorhomes in general, and Classic Hymers last so long and their owners love them so much because they are made of real wood and they are tough! But they are also heavy. So the sad truth is that you get less space in a Classic Hymer under 3.5t than you do in a post 97 modern van which has been built for lightness.

So much as it pains me to say, as a complete Hymerholic, the fairest advice to a young family is to be aware of this and factor it into your decision. You will get more space and convenience for a young family from a post 97 bigger, but lighter van.

OK that's the logical truthful bit out of the way....but who cares about logic over style anyway? Otherwise you would never see families of 4 or even more crammed into VW buses would you now! And I have seen all sizes of families in all sizes of Hymer!

And for families there is also this option to think about, especially if you are mainly concerned with summer family holidays. Put the kids in a tent! Most of them love it and will thank you for it. Everybody likes their own little space. This was the only thing that worked for me when I was the proud owner of 3 under 10's plus one surly teenager! And think about awnings and safari rooms in this context.

So having explained the 1997 change in the law and the 3.5t versus 7.5t thing - lets now talk about those of us old enough to drive the full range of Classic Hymers, not just the small ones. (Technical note for newbies - most Hymers that start with a 5 are 3.5t or less, those that start with a 6 or 7 are over - this is roughly true but do check the papers)

Classic Hymers fall into 2 main types - those where the main bed is fixed (usually at the back) and those where the main bed is the famous front "drop down bed" situated over the cab. And of course nearly all fixed bed Hymers are also fitted with the front bed.

So the next big decision faced by potential buyers is to choose between these two styles - usually between a 5 series or a 6/7 series.

When considering a 5 series, do so in the knowledge that the bed, when down, will usually intrude into the living area in some way. So factor this into your thinking - any people  up there - young or old, snoring away, will be less than 3 feet away from any people in the main part of the van. Of course this isn't an issue for couples who go to bed together, but if not - think about it. There is one 5 series design that is the best for this, and that is one where the main eating/lounging area is at the back, the kitchen/bathroom is in the middle, and the drop down bed is of course at the front. This maximises the distance between the bed occupants at the front and the awake people at the rear. It is also good for families with two or less children, as they are as far away as they can be, but with the compromise that the adults have to (quietly) convert their rear lounge into a bed. But for a couple only, this layout works very well, as they can just go straight to bed from the rear to the front.

The next thing to think about if the drop down bed is going to be where you sleep is to try it out....as much as you can. Many owners love the DDB - they find it intimate and cosy, but others find out the hard way that it is either to small, or claustrophobic, or both. failure to get on with the DDB is probably the number one reason people end up dissatisfied with their 5 series. Some vans don't have a roof-light over the DDB - fitting one can help.

So you must think very carefully and do your research to decide if the DDB is for you, because if not, then you must consider a bigger van - a 6 or 7 series.

So lets get the next big bugbear out of the way - "I can't drive that - it's too big". This in particular is uttered when somebody sees a 7 series for the first time, as it has quite a big overhang at the back, and just looks big and ungainly. 

The first argument against this is the basic numbers - 5, 6 or 7, they all have the same engines and gearboxes, and mostly even all have the same wheelbase - so although they look a lot bigger, they are not in reality. A 7 series is only a ton or so heavier and 6 foot longer. But that 6 foot  (2 metres) is crucial - because that's the space in which they can fit a fixed bed, and separate your sleeping space from your living space.

So you have to really think about it, if your first reaction is the size. How much do you want it? It is simple ergonomics - allowing for the fact that most humans are between 1.5 and 2m tall, you need 2m for a bed, 2m for kitchen bathroom and 2m for a living space, so the minimum length for a van of this style is 6m - plus a bit for the engine, so the biggest popular Hymer (they did make a few bigger) is 7m.

So is it too big? Here I have to confess to personal bias, but I will try to be fair. It was me that bought a 5 series in 1999 and traded it for a 7 in 2000. Put a 5 side by side with a 7 in a field and they do look like David and Goliath, but honestly the reality is different. There is nowhere a 5 series can go that a 6/7 can't - it's as simple as that. My rule in the UK and also abroad is this - if the road is tarmaced, and there are no restriction signs, then I can go. The reason for this is simple - all public roads, unless there are restriction signs for width and weight, are designed and maintained to take at least a 7.5t delivery truck, or farm tractors and equipment - so if a farmer can take his tractor and trailer, then you can take your 7m van.

I have never seen myself, or heard a story from others, of a 6 or 7m van being stuck where a 5m van wasn't. I have had my 7 series van up and over nearly all the twisty mountain passes in the UK - an example of this is Hard Knott and Wrynose pass in the lake district. And remember that if you do take your big Hymer on these tiny roads, you will get through, but you will also have to do a lot of squeezing and reversing on single track roads - but no more that the local delivery truck or farmer - you do have a right to be there!

What IS the deciding factor is your own driving ability. Most people at some stage in their lives have driven a Transit van. Not much bigger than a car, and well within the comfort zone. A 5 series has the same feeling. You feel you can make the transition without too much stress. But a 6 or 7m van just seems to be too "HGV"!

There is no easy answer to this - you either want it or you don't. You have to go through exactly the same process I have outlined - define your lifestyle and desires, practically and honestly, and if the result is pointing you at a bigger van, then just think long and hard about whether you can make the transition. Don't forget that 6 and 7 series vans are about as popular as 5 series, and don't forget the pre 97 thing - so the over 45's have less issues with bigger vans.

I have also heard many stories from people who took the plunge, were nervous for the first few trips, but soon got used to it and wondered what all the fuss was about.
So having discussed the layouts of 5 series (DDB only) vans, lets go onto your choices in 6 and 7 series Classic Hymers.
Here your choices are easier, because there are less compromises to be made. You have a separate sleeping, cooking and living area and nothing has to be converted to sleep. But there are still serious choices to be made, but they are more about lifestyle than pure function. Do you want a dinette? Do you want to lounge on settees? There are pretty obvious questions to answer.

Another big issue is how much time you intend to spend in your van - your requirements for permanent living or long expeditions lasting months, will be completely different to those for long weekends and 2 week holidays.

Here are a selection of some of the more obscure ones that you might want to think about - these apply to all vans by the way.

Where do we put our muddy shoes after a walk? Do I want a separate shower? How do I integrate pets? Do I have any special needs? Do I do sport - if so how do I prepare and store my gear. Am I a music fan - can I install a decent sound system that won't annoy me when I use it? Do I watch a lot of TV? Where do my bikes go. What about a motorbike or scooter...or even a tow car? Do I intend to use sites? Or am I a "wildcamper" ... the list is endless, but the point I am trying to make is that you must take the effort to ask these and a hundred more questions before you make your decision.

I have met many people who freely admit that they didn't spend enough time on this before they bought their first van - I was one of them back in 1999!

So think long and hard about who you are, what you want, what is your lifestyle and what compromises are you willingly ready to make - then go and find your van. You will then realise why there are so many different Hymers! Mr Hymer and his team were the best in the business - they spent hundreds of hours at the drawing board, making things work - everything they did was for a reason, and the result is that there is a Classic Hymer for everybody, so take your time in finding yours.

And don't forget that nowadays you can hire Classic Hymers, and that there are meets where you can go and check out all the different styles, and the documents section contains the layouts of pretty much all the Classic Hymers.

Will existing owners please make comments and suggestions to make this article better - I must have missed a few things!



Tuesday 28 April 2015

A sensible discussion on seatbelts and child safety in older mororhomes


Hi everyone, need some advice and I'm sure I will get some here. I have got a 1989 s555, now I need to get some seat belts fitted in the rear for the kids any suggestions on how to go about it and what I need to do. It looks as though someone might of had some lap belts fitted at some point, but I'm not sure. Need to be able to put in at least one 3 point seat belt for baby car seat. Any help would be much appreciated.
  • John Drew sent you a message
  • Richard Wadham-Smith Hi John Drew I don't seem to have got your message. Thanks
  • Danny Stan it would be easier t buy a new motorhome
  • Lois Osborne-Carey Best get some proper advice I looked into this and most people advise not to as fitting new seat belts can be a minefield to making them legal to pass your mot etc. good luck be interested to know otherwise 
  • Dippy Hippy Richard check your "other" inbox it may have gone into there if John is not listed as a friend. Just a thought??
  • Jenni Regan One of the reasons we ended up with a newer (97) van was the seatbelt issue. I think you may struggle to get it done legally. Happy to be corrected though, so if anyone has had it done, I'd love to know more.
  • Martin N Christine Spillar Richard I have looked into this, so that our 2 grandkids can travel with us, we have an s550 1990 rear U shaped lounge. It is fairly easy to fit lap belts with extra strengthening under the rear seat but to get the 3rd fixing requires a lot of metalwork down to the chassis. the rear end is just not strong enough to anchor the 3rd fixing. It seemed a lot of work and not sure how it could be certified. Eventually decided on lap belts. Sorry not much help.
  • Colin Newby Older motorhomes generally didn't need seat belt anchorage points other than the front seats, if for your own peace of mind you fit lap belts, perhaps bolted through to the chassis, you will have done as much as humanly possible, obviously sideways facing seats will never be safe anyway, but it will stop the passengers being thrown about in the event of emergency avoiding action for example. With regard to the mot, simply remove them before the test, no legal need to be fitted, if not in can't be tested.
  • Colin Newby PS, my 534 rear u shaped lounge original Hymer instruction book 1990, shows 4 sideways seats, ie 2 each side in the back, my UK supplied van was inspected by the french authorities when imported here and those positions are marked both on the paperwork and in the van.
  • Peter Curry hi sorry to put a damper on things but most dealers will now remove sideways facing seat belts of any style on the advice of corporate lawers due to risks involved of spinal injury from twisting efect when in a colision. they have pretty much been outlawed since about 2000. and very few people have gone to the expense of crash testing retro fit frames. I can not get insurance to cover anything i do in the way of altering or fitting seatbelts.

  • Danny Stan Unless you have manufacturer fitted mounting points for seat belts you cannot add them easily or cost effectively. Like many things nowadays fitting something as Simple as a seatbelt could end up opening a whole can of worms that really isn't worth getting into...
    15 hrs · Like
  • Ron Bentham My take on this is that everybody is right to a degree. The true path lies in your own personality and attitude to risk. If you are the PC molly coddling type who wraps his children in cotton wool, and would be near suicidal if they even got a scratch, then indeed you may have made a mistake, and in order to comply with the letter of the law, and be able to prove that you did absolutely everything in your power to protect them, then a new van with manufacturer installed security is the only option. However if you are pragmatic, do your research, and then do whatever you can, in the realisation that just like air travel, sometimes shit happens, then you should be able to enjoy your motorhome. xxxx comments are spot on as usual. Danny is also right - you are unlikely to get type approval. The baby should be able to occupy the front passenger seat in a special chair secured by the installed 3 point belt. The 555 has front and rear facing dinette seats, and you should be able to fit lap belts, it is up to you to do research into how, and what is the best way. Of course these will be unapproved, and probably not very effective in certain situations, but they will prove that you did think about it and address the problem to the best of your ability. They will also send out the right signal to the kids and stop them running around playing cowboys and indians on the M6! It is highly unlikely that you will ever be involved in a life threatening smash - not impossible, but unlikely. And don't forget that there are thousands of non standard vehicles on the road, the authorities know this, and they only legislate to protect the majority. What they don't like is recklessness and irresponsibility. I also suggest that you do further research - Germany is famous for it's rules and regulations, so perhaps one of our German friends can explain what has been going on over there. My memories are vague, but I am sure I have seen all sorts of belts hanging around all sorts of Hymers and other vans over the years, so you are not the first person to face this dilemma. Lastly - do a bit more general research, in particular news articles. I am unaware that there has been any major scandal or tragedy on this subject, but Google is so good that an hour or so of diligent reading should give you a good grounding on both the official and unofficial view. The various caravan clubs should also have official policies available to guide you, but it is unlikely they will be anything more than "cover their backs" common sense guidelines.
    14 hrs · Like · 6
  • Samantha Barfoot In our S550 we have 3 lap belts in the rear, two side facing, one on the rear bench seat.We also had an engineer fix an isofix bar on the rear bench seat so we can use a baby seat.We have 3 children and carry them like this.I looked into this extensively when we had the youngest and decided the isofix is the only option, it was impossible to get 3 point belts fitted. We feel this is the safest option , no belts for them seemed more unsafe than lapbelts. Also its driven differently from a car so we decided this was best for us. Good luck.
    9 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 2
  • Colin Newby The attitude of rule makers is to cover their backs, a small example, I took a 1933 car for a UK mot, having fitted flashing indicators ( which obviously were never there in the first place ,having not been invented!),the tester said he wouldn't pass it because the front lights were too near the centre line of the car to legally comply. Pointing out there was no other place to mount them was not the answer he wanted to hear of course. After a long discussion I told him OK I'll fix it , good he said you can have an mot, what do you intend to do? Easy I'll make the car comply and be safer I'll take them off! He gave me the test. The attitude of insurance companies and the law is about looking after themselves, if I was still in the trade I wouldn't fit belts either, and clearly changing to a newer van would solve it, but may not be an option.Look after your own interests, and you'll be OK.
    8 hrs · Like · 1

Sticking switches - servicing and replacement


There seem to be quite a few instances of sticky or faulty switches on our (average) 20 yrs old pride and joys. In particular the switch that you check the battery voltage on. I have never asked Brownhills how much they want for a replacement switch, but I am pretty certain it will be considerably more than the £2.20 from this Ebay supplier. There are other switches of this style in the Hymer - so make a note, or come back here when you need one and I'll find it for you.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261863083076…

(On)Off(On) Momentary Large Black Rectangle Rocker Switch 6-Pin DPDT 12V in Business, Office & Industrial, Electrical & Test Equipment, Components &...
Like · Comment · Share
  • Mike Backhouse Nice find Ron . 
  • Chris Thomas nice find Ron, I need 4
  • Ron Bentham 4 momentaries - thats a lot of clicking!
  • David Olley These switches do tend to suffer from old age. I have removed three of mine, dismantled them and cleaned the contacts. Both momentary and two position types. They are held together by little clips each side and the rocker can be carefully prised out. Great care must be used to avoid allowing the two little springs (they are very small) and the rocking contacts to escape! The contacts on the rockers, as well as the bottom conductors, can be gently cleaned. To replace them it is necessary to use Vaseline on the end of a cocktail stick plus another (dry) cocktail stick to hold it in position. The little springs should be stuck to the inside surface of the rocker with Vaseline, too. Position the rocking contacts centrally, position the rocker centrally and carefully push it back into the switch body. Them with your multi-meter, test the operation of the switch. If all is well, replace it. If not, take it apart and try again, making sure everything is positioned correctly. Such fun! 
    11 hrs · Unlike · 2
  • Mike Backhouse Think I'll buy new ones 
    11 hrs · Like · 1
  • Ron Bentham David Olley you get a Classic Hymers special dedication award for attention to detail and dedication to the cause. You should have been a clock maker....or maybe you are! I'll just wait for a new one to arrive from Ebay!!
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Dippy Hippy Unsure how to replace these switches, do they just pull out and the new ones plug in?? Ours work when they feel like it so would be good to pop new ones in (not proficient enough to do what David has done!!   ) All advice greatly appreciated Master Jedi
    2 hrs · Like
  • Ron Bentham You have to get access behind the switch - depends on your Hymer, but usually it's 3 screws and the whole panel drops down. Then you take the 6 wires off the back of the switch - they just pull off. Then the switch pushes out forward through the panel. The new switch pushes in and clicks into place and then you reattach the wires - you did make a note of which wire went where didn't you!
    2 hrs · Like
  • Christian Skeels Just my top tip on electrics and re-wiring things: take several good photos, from several angles, on your phone or digital camera showing how everything is arranged before you start. A good 'before' picture can be a life saver when you discover the thing you forgot to note down!!
    1 hr · Edited · Like
  • Dippy Hippy Thanks guys, will order a couple (after checking they will fit of course) and accidentally forget to fit them and suddenly remember this little job needs doing at the meet. Maybe someone will show us how to do it and make sure we don't connect the fridge to the loo!!