Brake fade (pedal to the floor) in extreme conditions, plus automatic gearbox engine braking.

From Facebook.

On extreme descents with a lot of braking, the brakes can get hot and start to fade, sometimes the pedal can go right to the floor.

Question - Hi Hymerers - today's request revolves around brake fade after 8km down a 28degree incline with lots of switch backs in Guatemala

So we reached the bottom safely.
We used engine braking - but for some reason out auto box won't stay in first when first is selected, so it almost immediately changes up to 2nd and stays there - so still pumping brakes sporadically to keep speed down.
So on Monday will replace brake fluid and bleed using continuous pour and pump pedal method.
Anyone got any suggestions for additional steps/actions?
Should say no leaks and correct level in reservoir although when we stopped level was 15mm higher than normal and 2 hours later back to normal.
Also 2 hours later brakes returned with no spongy pedal and worked normally.
S700 1993 merc.

Answer - Yes I have experience of this in the Alps and the Atlas mountains. In extreme continuous braking situations the brakes will show their age. They get hot, the fluid gets hot, and you lose braking. Pumping helps, and careful use of low speed and engine braking, but it only really ever happens in extreme situations. Sometimes you just have to pull over and let the buggers cool off a bit. Of course it helps to keep the brakes in top condition, but in my experience thre is very little you can do other than change the fluid every few years. All that can happen is that pads wear out and pipes and callipers and cylinders spring leaks suddenly, and these things tend to happen suddenly not gradually. I now have enough experience to sit at the top of a mountain pass, having slogged up the bugger with one eye on the road and the other on the temperature gauge, and look down and think - right! I've got the bloody van up here in one piece, now I have to get it down the other side ditto. You just use the gears and eye up the hairpins well in advance, and ignore the traffic behind. 

Last year in the French alps we went over a real hum dinger. Coming down I applied all the experience and expectation of previous descents, and was quite happy with the progress, no brake fade - I always open my window so I can smell the brakes. We got to the bottom, and there was a gentle descent into the village, and we were hunting for croissants. As I pulled into the parking area in the square, having spotted a bakery. I almost piled into a parked car, because the brake pedal went to the floor, being still boiling from the descent, even though it hadn't done that during the actual descent. 

Unless you are completely uncertain when the fluid was last replaced, then don't necessarily rush to service the brake system. Do regularly check for the obvious, but it just occasionally happens on long descents, and you will come to recognise the potential situations before they give you a shock. Our mercs are resilient, but doing a transcontinental trip does tend to work them hard, as you have found. The first time it happened to me years ago, I had the brakes completely checked over, and there was nothing wrong. They then worked perfectly again until the next extreme situation a few years later. It's old technology, and it has its limitations. Nowadays a modern van would have a sensor that just bullied you into limp mode and gave you no option but to stop and call breakdown, and by the time they got there the temp would have dropped and they would find nothing wrong. At least with old tech you get the option! Mountain ranges are a challenge to any van - did you see my video last year of the Transfaragsan in Romania? Never seen so many hairpins! Just wait till you get on that crazy cliffhanging "road of death" in Chile or Peru wherever it is.

A technique I use is not to pump, but to apply braking in spurts of about 5 seconds, slowing down to a speed where engine braking will be able to keep me slow for another 5 seconds, during which the brakes have 5 seconds to cool down - so its a 50% duty cycle. As opposed to having your foot on the brake all the time, which keeps the pads in constant contact and allows the heat to build up. The worst possible thing is to allow the van to increase speed too much on the straights between hairpins, as you would in a car, because then you have to brake hard before the bend as well as during it. If you use the gears you can give the brakes a rest between hairpins. many is te time I say to my wife - it's quicker going up in first and second than it is coming down! If the pedal hits the floor, it will come back to normal if you just stop and let it cool. Don't panic!

​Other comments - 

​MW​

 Hi Ron - thanks for the vote of confidence from your experience. We had the same. totally fine all the way down, got to the flat 50m later total failure at 20mph. Our problem is the autobox wont hold 1st gear when selected- it selects 1st fine but as soon as speed hits 13mph on speedo or I lift foot off accelerator it changes up to second and then stays there so engine braking is limited to 30mph on Speedo ... fine for rolling UK Cotswolds ... but not what you and us have experienced. 
So the big question then:
Fluid changed 27000kms ago.
Should I change it again? Would you?
Pads about 50% discs smooth no grooves drums smooth no grooves. Pedal solid no eventual loss with continuous pushing. In fact all round no evidence of any problems.
Just the sudden loss of trust in the brakes and many many more steep inclines to plummet down.
But seriously Ron would you bother to change fluid?

​GB​

 Sounds text book 

​

. The fluid expanded with heat, ossibly boiled. You could expect old contaminated fluid to expand more than fresh fluid. It returned to its original level after cooling. There may have been a slight difference if you were back in Europe but id imagine moisture levels are low over there so it doesent get to take it on. The spongyness would have been from the reduced density of the boiled fluid. 
Try to have it vacuum bled Mark. Pumping an old master cylinder can damage the end seal and cause a leak. The normal stroke length of the shaft is clean however when you pump beyond that the corrosion or debris built up over years sitting on the shaft can tear the seal. I know it's another expense but it would save a future delay waiting for a new cylinder. Pressure bled from the top is fine too. Reverse bleeding can in some circumstances reverse the lip of a piston seal.

​TR 

My S700 Merc has the same problem in 1st, having driven big hills in heavy 4x4 not being able to drop to and hold 1st gear in the auto box worries me. The gear selector just won't go in..

​Ron ​

I agree with George - unless you know for sure your brake fluid is recent, then have it changed. I can't comment on the gearbox issue, my limited experience is that if manually selected they should stay in that gear. Even with a manual box, descending really steep passes, the weight of the van plus gravity was too much for engine braking to work in second, and first is just too low to be practical - so it is always for me a mixture of constant brake and engine braking. The brakes are fine - it's a solid reliable system - but if circumstances lead to the fluid getting hot then you have to be aware of it, and allow cooling time, or adjust driving technique. Don't forget that your handbrake is mechanically connected to the rear drums, which are pretty effective. I have had to use my handbrake on several occasions in the past, and as long as it is properly adjusted, it is a very useful and reliable emergency brake, and it's good to know you can grab it if you are unlucky enough to get unexpected pedal fade on a steep hill.

GB​

 I cant imagine that the autobox would stay in 1st gear above a given speed. There may be a fail safe valve etc that kicks in when the box reaches maximum revs. At high revs fluid compisite is being shreded. I remember reading that Mercedes were way ahead of the competition on automatics being as reliable as manual.

TR​

 The autobox problem (sorry slight hijack but still related) is that these models dont allow the 1st gear only to be selected as you move down the box. The lever is normally in D or 3 for some hills etc. Occasionally I use 2 to ensure it doesnt try to change up on slow climbs.. but.. you cant get the lever to go down the last position to 1. Hence it wont stay and lock in 1st gear. This is even whe stationary...

​GB​

Wish they had that twenty years ago when went from revving in Neutral and selected first. It wasn't pretty.

​RB ​

Mine will go into first, but you have to be going slowly

​CS​

 I checked this today on a steep descent having read your post. My OM602 Auto (S550) stays in first if I select first on the selector, it doesn't up shift. When you are trying to select 1st you bring the selector all the way back and then push to the right, The "1" indicator the dash should light.

​MW ​

Thanks everyone for your input. 

​CS ​

thanks for doing a test drive for us. It seems that although I have now fixed all the leaks in the autobox and found the correct fluid and figured out the correct filling temp and levels that there is a problem with it holding first gear. Thanks for the info on changing the fluid. I will get a manual vacuum pump and brake fluid for a complete fluid change. I will re-learn my downhill braking style and also pay more attention to the distance down the mountain and the angle of descent and make driving decisions accordingly. Much appreciated everyone. Here's to many more safe descents down Guatemalan mountains.

​RB ​

still jealous! be safe!

GB​

Guatemalan roads. You're heros

​CS ​

Been a very useful thread, coincidentally we've been exploring Exmoor this weekend and we had our first experience of pedal to the floor brake fade after a series of steep twisting lanes, we were nosing about for a wildcamp spot and so had the brakes on more than might be usual. This thread came at a perfect time! (Thanks to 

​Ron ​

for his comprehensive coverage of the issue).

​

Watch your insurance! Is it enough?

Is your van properly insured? 

In the event of a total loss - ie a write off, the insurance company will appoint a loss adjuster, who's job it is to value your van at the lowest possible figure that you will accept without going to court, and this is regardless of what you tell them what you think your van is worth when you take out the policy. In the case of an old van, that is difficult if not impossible to replace, like for like, then heartache can ensue. The only way round it is to do what the classic car people do, and that is to have an "agreed valuation" with the insurance people from the outset. They will usually ask for a written valuation to support this, and such a valuation isn't too difficult to get, although I can't at the time give you a definite contact - I'm working on it.
I am in the process of doing this myself. It would cost me around £18k to find a similar van, and then to add the extras that I have, to get an exact replacement - but a loss adjuster would probably offer me £10k. So I have spoken to my insurer (NFU) and they have said no problem - they just need a written valuation, which I am in the process of obtaining. Only by agreeing this valuation in advance and in writing with your insurer, will a classic owner have any chance of recouping a realistic figure in the event of a total loss.
Owners of "tatty" or "tired" vans need not worry so much, as they will usually be able to negotiate a figure that will enable them to buy a half decent replacement. But owners of lovingly restored or highly modified vans should take note.

An Easy way to install bigger batteries.

The Hymer, and most motorhomes, has a battery box that will take 2 batteries - one for the engine and one for the van - the leisure battery (LB). If you want more power, then you have to locate the LB elsewhere.

It's not a good idea to just slap an additional battery elsewhere and wire it in in parallel, although many people do just that, usually because there is very little choice and it's the easy way out. But you will never get the full potential out of two batteries installed in this way.

But you soon understand the problem when you decide to do it properly, and install 2 or more identical batteries elsewhere in the van - how do you wire them in? All the connections go to the original battery box, where the original LB is!

The easy answer is to use a "dummy battery" and big thick cables.

Take out the original LB, and replace it with a piece of wood with two terminal blocks mounted on it - one for pos one for neg. Then attach all the wires that used to go to the pos of the LB to the pos side, and ditto for the neg side.

So now you have all the wires connected as they were, but no battery!

Install the new battery(s) wherever suitable in your van. In an S700 there is little choice - it's either in the boot or in the gas locker. Another possibility if you are handy is to make an under chassis battery box - as found in HGVs. But wherever you put them, they must be identical, and wired in parallel. 

Then you take a single thick wire - as thick as you can afford and work with - I suggest 10 to 12mm diameter - and run it from the battery, down through the floor, along the underside of the van, and up into the original battery box, and to the positive terminal block on the dummy battery.

Now all you need to do is connect the negatives. You have two choices - you can run a separate wire along with the positive one, or you can use chassis, which saves wire - thick wire is expensive. You will see from your original battery box that the neg of both batteries goes to chassis via thick black cables. So attach the original LB neg to the neg terminal block. At the other end at the new batteries, run a thick cable to the nearest point on the chassis - make sure it's a clean connection to the main chassis member - usually down through the floor. 

IMPORTANT - do not connect the chassis neg to the same battery neg as the positive if more than one battery. It must go to the opposite neg of the last battery in the pack. So if two LB's in parallel, then the neg goes to the neg of the second battery.  This keeps the system balanced, and multiple batteries are seen "as one". The rule is - pos to the pos of the first battery, neg to the neg of the last battery. (does not apply for only one battery)

And that's it basically! No modifications to original van wiring needed at all. You can tap solar into the pos wire and neg to chassis at any convenient point, and the same if you upgrade your charger as you should if you install bigger batteries. The space where the LB used to be is now a useful empty space, you can put a charger or an inverter in there, whatever you can fit. Usually you would install your charger, inverter and solar controller as close to the batteries as possible.


Dummy battery - a simple piece of wood with two terminal blocks, in place of the original LB. You can see the original thick black cable going to the neg of the starter battery, and at the bottom you can see the thick red cable that goes down out of the box, and off to the new batteries. - not needed for most installations.

The little red box is a split charge relay- not needed for most installations.


Here is an install I did using 4 x 100a/h batteries. NOTE - the colours are wrong - the lower right connection to the neg is red - it should be black - to chassis. (wire is expensive - I had no black left) But everything else is correct. The pos is top left, and the main pos wire back to the original battery box goes from here. The blue box is a Victron inverter charger, and the white is a new consumer unit, but usually you would use the original 240v consumer unit to supply 240v from your inverter tom the van plugs.

Important NOTE!! This installation of 4 batteries in the boot of an S700 proved after one year to be too heavy. Pay attention to weight distribution. See next blog post on how I solved it. This photo is for demonstration of wiring batteries in parallel - not where to put them in your van.

More photos of some other dummy battery installs I have done.

The relay on the left is Victron Cyrix intelligent relay. It replaces the Hymer split charge relay (R1) which is located behind the fuse panel. It is important to take out R1 if you fit the Cyrix. The reason for this is that the Hymer wiring and relay is only rated to pass about 20 amps of charge through to a normal single leisure battery. If you fit bigger batteries, you need more charge. Fitting a bigger relay, with thicker wiring, enables about 50 amps to get through to the Odyssey from the alternator.

The yellow thing in the middle is a 100 amp mega fuse, and a convenient bolt on way of safety fusing - there is another on the negative of the battery - so that in the event of a crash which shorted out either the wiring, a fuse will blow.

Another method of fusing using blade fuses.

Another view - a dummy battery board makes installing and fusing extras a dream.

Major battery upgrade

It was a mistake to put 160 kilos of batteries in the boot of my S700, and then add a 130kg scooter! The van never complained, but there was a gradual awareness that it was too light at the front. We all make mistakes!

So how do I get powerful batteries in the front of my Hymer, when there is no obvious place to put them? Easy says Peter Curry, take the gas bottles out of the gas locker, install an underslung gas tank, then install anOdyssey PC1800 200 amp hour battery, which only weighs 60kilos, in the now empty gas locker.

So that's what we did! I did the electrics, while Peter did the gas tank. And then when we had finished all that Peter installed a new dash board in 12mm ply which has stiffened up the front end a treat - in addition to being almost a work of art!

The costs have been reasonable, especially after the sale of the old batteries, which Justin snapped up for the Linnebago 900 - which being a 7 and a half tonner doesn't even notice the weight. And the old refillable gas bottles went to a guy for his newly imported 670.

Everybody happy, and the van handles a lot better - I can feel the difference just by walking around inside. And I still have more power than I can shake a stick at - I am greedy when it comes to power.

Tech specs - 

Out - 4 x 100ah Yuasa professional sealed lead acid batteries.
In - 1 x Odyssey PC 1800 AGM 200ah marine battery.

Inverter - Victron 12/1600/70 inverter charger with auto changeover.

Solar - 3 x 120w Kyocera panels + 30amp MPPT controller

Nasa BM1 - compact battery management computer with 100amp shunt.

Gas 

Out - 2 x Gas-it 11kg refillable bottles

In - Gas-it 30kg (60 litre) underslung gas tank with external fill point and LED level meter inside van.

For lovers of tech trivia when I press the lever on my toaster, the battery delivers 105 amps to the inverter for the 4 minutes it takes to make toast. On a sunny day the solar will put that back in under an hour! But some days I have Muesli ...

Finished locker - gas now underslung, and a free shoe shelf with every pack!

Battery in red, Victron in blue, all sitting nicely on a plywood floor in the ex gas locker. Cables enter bottom left corner - 2 x 240v along chassis to consumer unit, very thick 12v cable across van chassis to original battery box, earth direct to chassis, solar cables along chassis and up through floor and wardrobe to roof. At bottom of picture is grey solar controller, which normally sits on top of Victron.

Closeup of 100amp shunt as supplied with Nasa BM1 battery monitor. Note thickness of cables - but also note that I used what was available and my cables are probably a bit over the top. There are online calculators for 12v cable size - but use the thickest you can.

And here is a follow up I wrote about the BM1 ...

The final piece of the jigsaw! Today I finally finished what I consider to be the ultimate energy system (for me anyway!), with the installation of abattery management monitor. 

I can now track and measure every amp in and out, which now enables me to calculate with good accuracy exactly how much longer my batteries will last, and how long it will take to fully recharge them, by any means.

This is only achievable if everything goes through a single shunt installed on the negative side of the battery - the original Hymer system and meters are untouched and fully functional.

The top display is the battery management monitor, and the lower display is the solar controller display, which isn't strictly necessary now that I have the new monitor display, but I had it already and it looks pretty.

What I have already learned, is that I am using a significant amount of power just doing nothing, as much as 4 amps if I am careless, but usually more like 2. I have a lot of gear in the van, and I am amazed at how much power is consumed when it's all switched off! This can be as much as 20amps wasted overnight, or the difference between getting a full charge and a partial charge from the solar panels on a cloudy day, while out shopping. So I am now going to install isolation switches so that no power is consumed while sleeping, or when not in the van so that the maximum charge goes into the batteries from the panels. I can also now see exactly what consumes what - the TV, the music system, the computer, the lights ... it is really informative and interesting - well it is to an anorak like me anyway!

Not every van needs such a system, but we live in our van for half the year, and we like to have pretty much as much power and convenience as we would have in a house, which isn't possible with just a single leisure battery.

Now we have bigger batteries, solar panels and an inverter/charger, and a system that tells us exactly how much power we have left, which means we can plan our movements much more accurately.

When the sun starts shining again, I am looking forward to seeing just how much sun is needed for daily self sufficiency.

Display of BM1 - top and Solar controller - bottom. Once you have a shunt which measures every amp in and out, then the BM1 can calculate the exact state of charge of your battery - you programme in the a/h capacity into the BM1 on installation. The top left photo shows 105% and 199 hours - which means it is fully charged.

And finally a quick and dirty schematic of the whole thing

Turbo conversions

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/show-us-your-van-motorhome/40941-yes-possible-fit-turbo-into-old-hymer-but-do-i-recommend-no.html

On LED lighting

Ron's Technical Tips No. 2.3 Amps

LED's - an alternative view.

Based on my own experience, and on reading pretty much every post on here since the beginning, I am starting to feel slightly negative about LED lighting, or at least about about installing them everywhere.

There are two main reasons for this - the first is how they look and feel - the aesthetics of them, and the second is just how much power do they really save?

Don't get me wrong, I like my LED installation, but it has taken me several years and at least 3 separate designs to get it to my satisfaction, and my present installation is in addition to and not instead of the original Hymer lighting. 

The first mistake I made was thinking that all leds are the same. They are not. I had to learn about "colour temperature", and that there are many, many shades of white. Several years ago it was difficult to know what you were buying, but now the market has settled down into roughly 2 shades of white - "cool white" and "warm white". Most people know this nowadays, but it is worth saying for the sake of completeness. Cool white is very bright and has shades of blue, and warm white has more yellow. It's down to personal taste, but in general most comments I have read indicate that warm is the way to go in a van, and cool is too harsh, a bit like an operating theatre. The main thing to remember is that it can make a big difference, and getting it wrong is just a pain in the rear. My first bathroom install lasted less than 24 hours before I put the old bulbs back!

The second mistake I made was underestimating the quality and design of the original lighting. Having lived with it for many years, when I started to replace elements of it, I found that I really missed them! Not only the lighting, but the feel and temperature as well. This is the main reason why I have retained nearly all the original lights in my present installation. I think one of the reasons for this is that most of us grew up with the look and feel of the old style lighting - both incandescent and fluorescent. Am I the only one who so often goes into a pub or restaurant which has just had all it's bulbs replaced willy nilly with modern bulbs, and gone "ouch!"?

So what's the appeal? Power saving! You are all mostly shouting. Well I have looked into this quite deeply, and I just don't think the power saving is all that great, or that important. Most Classic Hymers have a combination of 12v strip lights, and small round halogen spots. The strip lights are quite efficient, about 1 amp, and the spots less so at about 2 amps. On paper the difference is quite big, but in reality? I can't imagine a situation where you would have all the lights on for 6 hours. So the lighting "bill" for an average evening might be in the order of 10 amps. Yes the led's might only consume 20% of that - but so what? You have at least a 100 amp battery - you can afford it! And the real deal changer in recent years is that fact that the vast majority of us now have solar panels or some sort, which start to work as soon as the sun comes up, putting power back in.

As an example - take the 4 bulb bathroom column in most Classics. Switch it on and watch the rest of the lights in the van dim, and watch the needle zoom into the red! But Hymer always did things for a reason. You need light to do your makeup (Jon Avery!). As soon as you do away with those 4 powerful bulbs, you will miss them! And the reality is that Hymer didn't bother about how much power they used because they would only be on for a short time. They might use 6 amps - but for how long? So think about this before you rip them out.

My contention is that it isn't how much power you save, but how you use the power available. 

Power saving through lighting is only really a big factor if you are spending a lot of time off grid, and in particular in winter, where there is less sun available.

I am not trying to put anybody off LED lighting, but I do think there is more to think about than just power saving.

Finally, here are some random thoughts about LEDs.

Led strips in the curtain pelmets look super! But you have to install them properly. Nearly all the self adhesive strips I have used have eventually started to come down after a year or so - it can be very frustrating. You have to clean the surface very well, and basically if it doesn't say 3M on the backing strip - don't use it! You can repair falling strips with hot melt glue, or other glues, but it's a fiddly job.

RBG strips that change colour are very funky, but not as replacement lighting. The white that they produce is not liveable with. I suggest RGB strips for decoration and entertainment only.

LED bulbs that consist of lots of leds in clusters are, only in my opinion, the most potentially disappointing of all. Just one faulty flashing led and the thing becomes a source of annoyance. There have been gazillions of cheap Chinese led bulbs on the market, and already I reckon most of them are in the bin. If you have to use bulbs, buy the best you can possibly afford.

Quality in general can be pretty bad. On the whole I have been disappointed with the quality of the components I have used over the last few years. Last year I decided to go in the opposite direction and seek out the most expensive gear I could find - the sort used by proper fitters in commercial establishments. So far a year has gone by without a single fault. So you get what you pay for. Bear in mind that you really only want to do the job once! 

If you are getting on a bit, and find that you need more light than you used to for close up work, then well installed, powerful, high quality, dimmable, warm white led strips can be an absolute boon - especially over the kitchen and dining area.

So in conclusion, think twice, plan your installation, use the highest quality you can, think carefully about the aesthetics and don't be obsessed with power saving.

Also

On the subject of the original Hymer tube lights - most of us have one in the bedroom and one in the van. These were (I think) made by Philips, and are no longer available. However they are a lovely design, and part of the Classic look. They don't consume a lot of power, and have a nice light. The tubes can be replaced, but when the transformer goes, as many do after 25 years, then it's quite a wrench to replace them with a modern unit. However it is a very worthwhile project to rip out the insides and install warm white led strips inside. The end result is very good, and preserves the "classic" feel.

More musings on buying vans (clipped from FB)

I've had 2 S700's in the last 15 years and I love them. Assuming you are not afraid of a toolbox and rolling your sleeves up, then this is my advice. You won't find a perfect van, so it's a matter of how much money and work you are willing to commit to any given van. Most things in a van are cosmetic and not worth getting worried about, as long as the price isn't daft. Batteries, appliances, fridges, wiring, front dash board etc are all reasonably straightforward DIY jobs, and there is usually plenty of work to be done, unless it's been kept on top of by a previous owner. So what you are really looking for is a van that just "feels right" - something that can be worked on - a vision. At a basic level it is a box on wheels, so it's the box and the wheels that need to be looked at most carefully. Look at the expensive things. You want an engine that sounds quite sweet and isn't leaking oil, although some oil leaks can be easily fixed. A bit of smoke from cold is fine and should fade away. Check an auto box very closely, it is imperative to have a test drive. The van should move smoothly through the gears, and kick down on hills. You want progressive acceleration up to 50-60 and then a reasonably smooth cruise - these vans are not fast. Manual boxes should select all gears normally, but don't worry about 1st gear being stiff and difficult to engage. It's a crawler gear and designed to be selected at standstill. If the stick feels spongy and sloppy then it's usually the selector mechanism, not the box itself, and easily fixed. I have written another article about this on this blog. Steering should be reasonably tight and vibration free, but problems here are usually just a matter of worn bushes and easily fixed.

Next, use your nose and smell for damp. Old Hymers are generally watertight unless they have been damaged or abused. 

Around the front end drivers door, if it has one, and the dash board - which is a favourite for getting rotten - it's a piece of plywood and gets soft from all the condensation that drips down the inside of the windscreen. It's a weekends work, and pretty much every old Hymer needs it done at some stage. A knowledgeable seller will tell you if it's been done, but if not, rock the van from side to side, inside, and if you see any movement between the bottom of the windscreen and the dash board, then you know it will need doing. It shouldn't be a deal beaker if you like the rest of the van and are handy with tools, a drill and a jigsaw.

Then take a good long look underneath - you are looking for any areas of bad rust on the main chassis members. Hymers were very well undersealed at the factory, so don't be suspicious if you find it surprisingly clean, but occasionally you will find chassis members flaking with rust, especially behind the back wheels. If the van has mudflaps at the back wheels, that's a good sign. Also check the rear of the floor right at the back in the boot - it gets rotten with all the road water.

Also - these vans have character. Just sit in it quietly for 5 minutes and imagine yourself living in it. Hopefully it will whisper to you!

Price wise - The Germans are asking around £16k for fully loaded lovingly maintained examples. For this sort of money it should be perfect. More than perfect! Most UK vans that need a bit of TLC are around £10 to 13k. Maybe a bit more at this time of year. The right price should be the purchase price plus whatever you need to spend to get it up to scratch, so if you have a fixed budget bear this in mind. If you find any areas of concern and need advice, take pictures and an audio recording of the engine and come back on here. Good luck!