Hi and welcome - I am Ron Bentham, owner of several "classic" Hymer motorhomes since 1998, full time for the last 10 years and trekked well over 20 countries and over 200,000 Hymer miles. I have been running the Classic Hymers Technical group since 2017. I maintain a database of technical info and photos on all aspects of old Hymers and have some industry contacts for the stuff I don't know. I am known not to pussyfoot around! - I tell it how I see it!
There is a steady stream of newcomers asking about how to buy a Classic Hymer ... So here is the smack in the face guide to how NOT to buy a classic motorhome! However it must also be said that many sales go without a hitch - honest sellers and willing buyers - but they tend not to shout about it online - you only hear the bad stories.
First thing to remember is that you are buying a box of tricks made from wood and metal that is 20 or even 30 years old. Stick an old fridge or TV, or even an old car in your back garden, and then go away and come back in 20 years - that is the sort of wear and tear you can expect. So the first thing to remember is that no old van is perfect.
But when you do buy a classic van, there are certain things you should at least check, and are entitled to as a minimum.
There are 3 main areas you have to look at as a bare minimum - damp, appliances and mechanical.
Damp is the number one killer of vans and the most expensive to repair professionally. Fixing damp problems needs experience and can be labour intensive. This makes it expensive if you are using a professional, but also, means that it can be cheap if you do it yourself because your labour is free. But for most buyers, the number one reason to walk away from a van is damp.
It's not rocket science - the major areas for water ingress are easy to see and common sense can detect major problems. Windows are the main culprit - look closely around the windows for soft spots and discolouration.
Look outside at the sealing around the frame - you don't want to see new sealer on top of old - that's a bad sign. However windows are actually easy to remove and reseal - the first one might take you all day, but after that it gets faster - a window can be removed, cleaned and resealed in under an hour.
The worst case scenario for window leaks is that the damp has crept into the wall and the wall has become rotten. This then needs chopping out and replacing.
Roof lights are the same as windows - check all around for the tell tale signs.
Look outside at the sealing around the frame - you don't want to see new sealer on top of old - that's a bad sign. However windows are actually easy to remove and reseal - the first one might take you all day, but after that it gets faster - a window can be removed, cleaned and resealed in under an hour.
The worst case scenario for window leaks is that the damp has crept into the wall and the wall has become rotten. This then needs chopping out and replacing.
Roof lights are the same as windows - check all around for the tell tale signs.
The next place to look is the floor, especially in the areas near the wheel arches that catch all the water spray from the wheels. Look outside, and in.
Then there are the joins where the walls meet the roof. In Mercedes S class classics, they have a single piece fibreglass roof that overlaps the walls, so problems here are potentially less. But in Fiat family B class, it is a traditional caravan style joint with an aluminium extrusion and sealer. It is hard to check this - but get inside the cupboards and poke around.
Finally - use your nose - smell and sniff - damp has a distinctive smell.
Then there are the joins where the walls meet the roof. In Mercedes S class classics, they have a single piece fibreglass roof that overlaps the walls, so problems here are potentially less. But in Fiat family B class, it is a traditional caravan style joint with an aluminium extrusion and sealer. It is hard to check this - but get inside the cupboards and poke around.
Finally - use your nose - smell and sniff - damp has a distinctive smell.
I haven't mentioned the use of damp meters - cheap ones are useless, and the good ones need knowledge to interpret the results. If you are really keen on a van - get a professional involved - unfortunately there are not many classic pros left around, most of them have retired, but they do exist.
Next - appliances. I have lost count of the number of people who simply never check that all the appliances are working properly. I see them online all the time - they come on asking for advice, and my first question is - has it ever worked (for you), and the answer is usually no, but the seller either said "we never use it", or it's an easy fix. It isn't! If it was, they would have fixed it.
Next - appliances. I have lost count of the number of people who simply never check that all the appliances are working properly. I see them online all the time - they come on asking for advice, and my first question is - has it ever worked (for you), and the answer is usually no, but the seller either said "we never use it", or it's an easy fix. It isn't! If it was, they would have fixed it.
Water, heat and refrigeration are absolutely fundamental to the basic enjoyment of a motorhome. So it is essential that you see and feel them working. Ask in advance of the viewing for the seller to switch on all the appliances. You need to feel the heat coming out of the hot air ducts. You need to see the fridge working. Ask the seller to switch on the fridge, on gas, at least 4 hours, preferably overnight, beforehand, and place a cup of water in the freezer, and another on the middle shelf. I shouldn't need to say what you should expect. But there is no way to test a fridge if it isn't switched on in advance.
A new Donetic 3-way campervan fridge is now around £1100 to buy and fitting is around £400. The commonest fridge problem is "not working on gas" - as long as the fridge is working on mains 230v (again, get proof) then the gas side can usually be fixed - it's a common problem. The parts are cheap if you DIY or a fridge expert will usually fix a gas problem for a couple hundred or so.
You need not walk away from a decent van because it has a faulty fridge - you just need to know what you might be in for.
However - non working appliances also has another, more sinister side - why? If heat and cold and water are so fundamental to having a good time - then why hasn't the previous owner had them fixed? It is a sad fact that some owners should never have really owned a van in the first place - perhaps they tried it, and didn't like it, or perhaps they were just lazy. Either way, if you detect signs like this, then you have to ask - what else hasn't been fixed or maintained. For some, this will be a sign of a bargain, but for others who want a working van with minimum problems - it should be a red flag. You really want an enthusiastic seller who knows everything about the van. The worst sellers are those selling "for a friend".
Heating - most classic Hymers have a Truma heater that both radiates, and blows hot air around the van. Again these can usually be fixed - but dealer labour can be £80 an hour - it soon mounts up. A new heater is around £500 plus fitting, but there are plenty s/h ones - they were not just used in Hymers. But do you want the hassle? To be fair, heater problems are less common than fridge problems. The commonest heater problem is flat batteries in the igniter - so take a couple of AA batteries!
Leisure Batteries - my attitude to batteries is really straightforward. Unless you have an invoice that shows that the battery is newish, then simply budget for a new battery. Batteries are consumables, and have a life of roughly 5 years. So other than testing that the lights work, the water pump pumps and the heater fan spins, don't worry about the battery - it's not a crime to sell a van with a worn out battery. Same goes for the charger - the charger that charges the battery when you are plugged in - the original, if still there, will be a dinosaur, and 99% of all vans have it replaced with a modern digital charger - around £150 for a good one.
Leisure Batteries - my attitude to batteries is really straightforward. Unless you have an invoice that shows that the battery is newish, then simply budget for a new battery. Batteries are consumables, and have a life of roughly 5 years. So other than testing that the lights work, the water pump pumps and the heater fan spins, don't worry about the battery - it's not a crime to sell a van with a worn out battery. Same goes for the charger - the charger that charges the battery when you are plugged in - the original, if still there, will be a dinosaur, and 99% of all vans have it replaced with a modern digital charger - around £150 for a good one.
Solar - same goes for solar - unless you have paperwork that proves otherwise, assume that any solar panels are old - many vans still have solar panels that were fitted in the 90s - and probably cost thousands back then. Nowadays solar is cheap and easy to fit, so is no reason to reject an otherwise good van. You can fit state of the art solar if you DIY and have change from £200.,
Mechanical - I am not a mechanic, I have always used garages for most of my servicing and repairs, but I have picked up a lot along the way.
Classic Hymers were made in 2 classes - B Class and S Class. the B Class were on Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen Chassis (also known as "Sevel" family type engines) and the S Class were on Mercedes - the old pre Sprinter 310D and 410D.
As you would expect this has given rise to endless often heated online social media arguments about what is best. I will distill and summarise some of these as subtly as I can. There are more Fiats than Mercs, so statistically there will be more reports from Fiat owners than Mercs. And of course bad news travels fast online - nobody ever just randomly posts that they have just had 5 years of trouble free motoring! But I have been analysing and counting reports for several years now, and can draw some conclusions. There does appear to be slightly more mechanical vulnerability in the B Class vans than the S Class 0 but you have to remember that all these vans are now over 30 years old - and just look at how many 30 year old cars are still on the road - not many! So the issue with Fiats vs Mercs is not which is better, but which age the most gracefully. And in this context the most important factor is how the van has been treated by its many owners during those 30+ years - so it follows that a well maintained Fiat will be better than a badly neglected Merc, and vice versa. Another thing I have noticed from all the reports is that Fiats tend to break suddenly if badly maintained, whereas Mercs tend to moan and groan and give you warning. And there is no favouritism in quoting what is pretty much common knowledge to the Boomer generation - Mercedes vehicles of the 70s 80s and early 90s were among the best on the road - but were also about 25% more expensive than anything else. Also - these are German vans, and the Germans were famed for their engineering back then, so there was no way any German motorhome manufacturer was not going to offer a Mercedes option.
So what you want to see in either van is evidence that it has been well looked after and serviced. Unfortunately very few vans have managed to retain a full 30 year service history - a few do, and when they come on the market they generally command top money. But if there is service history, look through it carefully - you don't have to minutely examine the technical details but you can get an impression of how the van has been maintained. The MOT history is also a good guide, and MOT histories are now online. The MOT history can tell you a lot about an old van - how many miles it has done each year. And of course the advisories and failures. For example - if I see a van that has either failed or got an advisory for silly things, like a bulb not working, that tells me that the owner didn't even have the sense to check the basics before he MOT'd it - and that is a red flag to me. So use the info that's available to you and examine it closely.
The only other major difference between B and S Class other than the engine and chassis, is that B Class vans have a different roof to the S Class vans. The S Class vans have a single piece moulded fibreglass dome room with rounded edges, which sits on top of the walls and overlaps. The B Class vans have roofs that comprise the same material as the walls with sealed seams where they meet - caravan style.
Unless you pay a professional for an inspection, which is generally a wste of time anyway, because the AA and RAC inspectors know SFA about motorhomes and the reports they produce are nebulous at best .... you can only address the basics. These are, in no particular order -
As you would expect this has given rise to endless often heated online social media arguments about what is best. I will distill and summarise some of these as subtly as I can. There are more Fiats than Mercs, so statistically there will be more reports from Fiat owners than Mercs. And of course bad news travels fast online - nobody ever just randomly posts that they have just had 5 years of trouble free motoring! But I have been analysing and counting reports for several years now, and can draw some conclusions. There does appear to be slightly more mechanical vulnerability in the B Class vans than the S Class 0 but you have to remember that all these vans are now over 30 years old - and just look at how many 30 year old cars are still on the road - not many! So the issue with Fiats vs Mercs is not which is better, but which age the most gracefully. And in this context the most important factor is how the van has been treated by its many owners during those 30+ years - so it follows that a well maintained Fiat will be better than a badly neglected Merc, and vice versa. Another thing I have noticed from all the reports is that Fiats tend to break suddenly if badly maintained, whereas Mercs tend to moan and groan and give you warning. And there is no favouritism in quoting what is pretty much common knowledge to the Boomer generation - Mercedes vehicles of the 70s 80s and early 90s were among the best on the road - but were also about 25% more expensive than anything else. Also - these are German vans, and the Germans were famed for their engineering back then, so there was no way any German motorhome manufacturer was not going to offer a Mercedes option.
So what you want to see in either van is evidence that it has been well looked after and serviced. Unfortunately very few vans have managed to retain a full 30 year service history - a few do, and when they come on the market they generally command top money. But if there is service history, look through it carefully - you don't have to minutely examine the technical details but you can get an impression of how the van has been maintained. The MOT history is also a good guide, and MOT histories are now online. The MOT history can tell you a lot about an old van - how many miles it has done each year. And of course the advisories and failures. For example - if I see a van that has either failed or got an advisory for silly things, like a bulb not working, that tells me that the owner didn't even have the sense to check the basics before he MOT'd it - and that is a red flag to me. So use the info that's available to you and examine it closely.
The only other major difference between B and S Class other than the engine and chassis, is that B Class vans have a different roof to the S Class vans. The S Class vans have a single piece moulded fibreglass dome room with rounded edges, which sits on top of the walls and overlaps. The B Class vans have roofs that comprise the same material as the walls with sealed seams where they meet - caravan style.
Unless you pay a professional for an inspection, which is generally a wste of time anyway, because the AA and RAC inspectors know SFA about motorhomes and the reports they produce are nebulous at best .... you can only address the basics. These are, in no particular order -
The engine should start easily - a bit of smoke on start up is OK, as long as it is gone within 10 minutes of driving. The van should pull smoothly - if possible, find the steepest hill in the neighbourhood.
The gears should change up and down, and the clutch should bite in a normal way. Even if you can't be behind the wheel yourself, tell the driver to do this.
The brakes should work! Seems obvious, but motorhomes hardly ever get to stop in an emergency - they are usually driven sedately. But you need to know that the van will stop hard - so find a quiet road and ask for this to be done. The van should not pull to either side under braking.
Check for oil - this can be a head scratcher - it is quite rare to find a 25 year old diesel that is squeaky clean. There is usually a bit of oil about. Look for lots of it, and shiny. If a van is leaking oil, then the slipstream should be blowing it all over the underside of the van. Also check - is it diesel or engine oil? Many vans have minor diesel leaks that are usually an easy fix.
Pretty much everything mechanical can be fixed - the worst case scenarios are bad engines and gearboxes. Merc gearboxes hardly ever fail, it's always the selectors, which are an easy fix. Fiat boxes have a known problem with 5th gear, so make sure you see 5th working properly - you need a motorway or dual carriageway.
If in doubt - get a garage involved.
Mileage - don't forget many classics have odometers in kms. You can tell a lot from a vans mileage, and also it's UK MOT history. A 25 year old van with 125,000 km on the clock should be classed as "low mileage"! Work it out - that's 5000kms a year. That means basic family use - a few weekends away and 2 decent holidays. But a van with 250k on the clock has done double that - it may have started doing basic family holidays, but later on in life it might have been full timed all over Europe. So ask as many questions as possible and look at the history. Avan that has been full timed and overlanded is not to be avoided at all costs, but also shouldn't be premium money.
Pretty much everything mechanical can be fixed - the worst case scenarios are bad engines and gearboxes. Merc gearboxes hardly ever fail, it's always the selectors, which are an easy fix. Fiat boxes have a known problem with 5th gear, so make sure you see 5th working properly - you need a motorway or dual carriageway.
If in doubt - get a garage involved.
Mileage - don't forget many classics have odometers in kms. You can tell a lot from a vans mileage, and also it's UK MOT history. A 25 year old van with 125,000 km on the clock should be classed as "low mileage"! Work it out - that's 5000kms a year. That means basic family use - a few weekends away and 2 decent holidays. But a van with 250k on the clock has done double that - it may have started doing basic family holidays, but later on in life it might have been full timed all over Europe. So ask as many questions as possible and look at the history. Avan that has been full timed and overlanded is not to be avoided at all costs, but also shouldn't be premium money.
Everything else should be cosmetic - carpets, woodwork, worktops - just be realistic. A good bit of advice is to ask the seller to let you and your partner sit quietly in the van for a while. Feel it, smell it - is it whispering to you?
Finally - and this is the daft bit - the money side.
I have come to learn from many years of stories and meeting owners and solving problems - that when it comes to a classic vehicle - the price is secondary. If you have bought into the vibe and love the scene and want to join in, then plus or minus a couple of grand either way should not be part of the process. Finding the right van for you is the top priority. So you have to do your research. Unfortunately, they are not making them anymore, so you can't just go out and buy a van with the exact specification you want. So when the right van comes along, you have to have the money ready, and pounce!
Also - have a contingency fund. It is totally unrealistic to expect to pay fifteen grand for a 25 year old van and immediately drive it off to the Algarve and have no problems. It just doesn't work like that. Far better to have some money in hand, and expect to have to spend it. I always advise 10% - For less than £1000 you can get a new leisure battery, a new charger, and a habitation check from a reputable engineer, and maybe even a solar upgrade and iron out a few other niggles. Then a few weekends away to iron out the niggles, and then you are good to go. Be ready to buy a solid platform, and have the budget to make it your own. It is far better to buy a van with faults for the right money, and have the budget to fix it, than it is to have somebody else's word that the van is perfect. If you do it yourself, you know it's been done. Only a perfect paper trail from an OCD owner is worth a big premium.
Know the market! Research research research! I drive a 93 S700 - I have seen the same van as low as £7000, and as high as £20,000. The 7k van had 350,000km on the clock and was very tatty, but sound. It needed at least 10k spending on it, if not more. The 20k van was as perfect as you will ever see - a paperwork file 2 inches thick, low mileage, long UK MOT history (plus all the German ones!) and had literally every upgrade and no faults. It sold within a week. If you are REALLY into classic Hymers, you will know that pristine vans are worth a healthy premium - and so do others, sometimes it is simply a matter of whoever gets there first after an ad is placed.
Finally finally - know yourself! You need basic practical skills to keep an old van on the road economically. The worst reason to buy a classic van is because it's all you can afford, but you don't have any practical skills, or the willingness to learn. I have seen so many people come a cropper like this - old vans always come with problems - you have to be eyes wide open and regard it as all part of the fun. But if you pay dealer prices every time you have a problem, you will soon be thousands down on the deal.
And do not buy a classic Hymer because you have been told that they are indestructible best in the world and never break. That's rubbish. They are a well built van using 1980s and 90s German technology and quality. This has enabled them to age better than most (but not all) other vans and they have developed a nice reputation based on these facts - but they are only a box with wheels made or wood and metal - not even a Rolls Royce will withstand years of abuse and neglect, so keep this in mind. So look out for vans that come with a story, and be wary of vans without history.
SCAMS - beware! The internet is now a scammers paradise, and in the last couple of years (up to 2024) the scammers have been active in the Hymer scene. Many is the time I see a van advertised on Ebay that I know for sure was sold a month ago! I shouldn't have to spell this out, but will anyway. There is no such thing as a cheap bargain Hymer online. Occasionally you get a barn find or a van being disposed of quickly after a bereavement, but these are getting rare, and if they do appear and are genuine there is usually a bidding war. You just don't bid on any vehicle sight unseen - you don't, and if you do you are daft. If you are serious, you go and inspect before bidding. And you don't fall for any daft scams about bank details, delivery, people dying, leaving the country, emigrating and so on ... you attend in person, you see the photo ID - passport or driving licence - of the seller and you photo it. You get him to fill in the V5 slip in front of you - or just sign it and give you the whole V5 ... then you either pay cash or do online bank transfer there and then. And you don't give deposits.
The ideal place is the facebook group "Hymermarket" this is where most good owners advertise. Occasionally dealers have tradeins that they want to shift, and there can be bargains, as long as the seller is a bona fide motorhome dealer, not a dodgy bloke in a car park. If in doubt, ask!
Also - have a contingency fund. It is totally unrealistic to expect to pay fifteen grand for a 25 year old van and immediately drive it off to the Algarve and have no problems. It just doesn't work like that. Far better to have some money in hand, and expect to have to spend it. I always advise 10% - For less than £1000 you can get a new leisure battery, a new charger, and a habitation check from a reputable engineer, and maybe even a solar upgrade and iron out a few other niggles. Then a few weekends away to iron out the niggles, and then you are good to go. Be ready to buy a solid platform, and have the budget to make it your own. It is far better to buy a van with faults for the right money, and have the budget to fix it, than it is to have somebody else's word that the van is perfect. If you do it yourself, you know it's been done. Only a perfect paper trail from an OCD owner is worth a big premium.
Know the market! Research research research! I drive a 93 S700 - I have seen the same van as low as £7000, and as high as £20,000. The 7k van had 350,000km on the clock and was very tatty, but sound. It needed at least 10k spending on it, if not more. The 20k van was as perfect as you will ever see - a paperwork file 2 inches thick, low mileage, long UK MOT history (plus all the German ones!) and had literally every upgrade and no faults. It sold within a week. If you are REALLY into classic Hymers, you will know that pristine vans are worth a healthy premium - and so do others, sometimes it is simply a matter of whoever gets there first after an ad is placed.
Finally finally - know yourself! You need basic practical skills to keep an old van on the road economically. The worst reason to buy a classic van is because it's all you can afford, but you don't have any practical skills, or the willingness to learn. I have seen so many people come a cropper like this - old vans always come with problems - you have to be eyes wide open and regard it as all part of the fun. But if you pay dealer prices every time you have a problem, you will soon be thousands down on the deal.
And do not buy a classic Hymer because you have been told that they are indestructible best in the world and never break. That's rubbish. They are a well built van using 1980s and 90s German technology and quality. This has enabled them to age better than most (but not all) other vans and they have developed a nice reputation based on these facts - but they are only a box with wheels made or wood and metal - not even a Rolls Royce will withstand years of abuse and neglect, so keep this in mind. So look out for vans that come with a story, and be wary of vans without history.
SCAMS - beware! The internet is now a scammers paradise, and in the last couple of years (up to 2024) the scammers have been active in the Hymer scene. Many is the time I see a van advertised on Ebay that I know for sure was sold a month ago! I shouldn't have to spell this out, but will anyway. There is no such thing as a cheap bargain Hymer online. Occasionally you get a barn find or a van being disposed of quickly after a bereavement, but these are getting rare, and if they do appear and are genuine there is usually a bidding war. You just don't bid on any vehicle sight unseen - you don't, and if you do you are daft. If you are serious, you go and inspect before bidding. And you don't fall for any daft scams about bank details, delivery, people dying, leaving the country, emigrating and so on ... you attend in person, you see the photo ID - passport or driving licence - of the seller and you photo it. You get him to fill in the V5 slip in front of you - or just sign it and give you the whole V5 ... then you either pay cash or do online bank transfer there and then. And you don't give deposits.
The ideal place is the facebook group "Hymermarket" this is where most good owners advertise. Occasionally dealers have tradeins that they want to shift, and there can be bargains, as long as the seller is a bona fide motorhome dealer, not a dodgy bloke in a car park. If in doubt, ask!
Good luck, and join "Classic Hymers Technical" group on Facebook, where you will find a large number of archived posts covering just about every possible technical problem with Classic Hymers, and (usually) how to fix them. The online community is another reason people buy these vans.
Here are the typical layouts of the pre 95 vans - but for detailed info consult the old brochures which are in the group Google drive accessible by all on this link - the brochures are named by year - 1993, 1995 etc ...
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/154tgv0uo6eFXmBEetj62RNnXq7g5Z1ht?usp=drive_link
Here are the typical layouts of the pre 95 vans - but for detailed info consult the old brochures which are in the group Google drive accessible by all on this link - the brochures are named by year - 1993, 1995 etc ...
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/154tgv0uo6eFXmBEetj62RNnXq7g5Z1ht?usp=drive_link
Just to say thanks for posting all this stuff. I've been reading here for a couple of hours and found it a better source of information than anything else (writing as someone who's not owned a motorhome but is considering a classic Hymer in earlyish 2021).
ReplyDeleteYou seem to have produced articles answering most of my initial questions, in a very readable style. Much appreciated.
Thanks for the nice words. maybe see you on the FB group soon. I am happy to check over any ad or info you may have on a prospective purchase. Join the FB group and message me.
DeleteThanks, Ron. That's really very kind of you. I've joined the group, and will likely message you in the next month or two. All the best for the new year.
DeleteThanks Ron excellent information I am hoping to buy a classic as soon as we can sell our T5
ReplyDeleteThis is great information, thank you!
ReplyDeleteMy sister's 1990 B654, Fiat Ducato 2.5 TD, is already ensconced undercover. A great workspace and a not so great worker, me :) I'm off to immerse myself in Classic Hymers Technical Group and this blog. I'd love to ask you loads of questions but I'm going to do my research first.